Throwing Other Photographers Under the Bus May be Great Fun, But Is It a Good Thing?

My points has only to do with the law, nothing else. Everything else is purely subjective.

Everything that you said “is the law” is totally incorrect. It amazes me how many “jailhouse lawyers” want to quote “the law”. The one thing law students learn after three hard years of training and study is that they do NOT know what the law is. So how can folks that maybe have a high school diploma or even a BA degree know “the law”?

When a case is appealed to a higher court, the court does not RE-consider the facts; the case not litigated a second time. The only issue is whether there was a mistake in what law was used and/or a mistake in how a law was applied. If this case were appealed, the judge’s decision would be upheld.

I fully agree with you. The fact is she could have bought more “pro” equipment. Hell she could even have shot medium format but then the client would have paid a hell of a lott more. The judge was right, the client doens know f-stop from ISO BUT they dont care about that in any case. All they care about is paying the minimum for maximum quality. In what capatalist country is that the way it works?

The fact is as you say. Did the end product match the quality in her portfolio and was what was delivered, accroding to the brief of the client. NOT what the speed of her lens was.

As far is the Fuji paper. In South Africa Fuji Crystal is not only professional, it is good enough for art galleries. Why the hell is it not good enough for a wedding album?

I have watched this twice now. I don’t see any part where we are shown the photographers portfolio that the bride was shown? The bride said that the images she received were not the same quality as what they saw in the portfolio. All the images shown were of the brides wedding.

This is a TV show first, supposedly a courtroom second. It is supposed to be sensational and entertaining.

Would a defendant be able to interupt the plaintiff or the judge in a real courtroom? Would they be able to speak to the judge with that level of contempt? I doubt it.

It’s a TV show. Both parties were paid to be on it and normally the judgments are paid by the producers, so the loser is not out anything. It could have gone totally different if the bride was rude and the photographer was calm.

You can get on your high horses about how awful the photographer was treated, or how awful the photographer was. You’re just on different sides of the fence doing the same thing.

I’m with you. I found the link on Rich Legg’s blog and set to watch it cause’ it might be good for my FB or Blog. Didn’t take long to realize “No Way”. It was painful to listen to the Judge entertain himself with what he thinks he knows and dismiss the pertinent facts. What I got out of it is all photographers are now more vulnerable to anyone who watched that circus. Shame on Rich Legg for being blind himself.

So if one were to use a E1 or a Nikon D1 with lets say a 50mm lens, you cannot take good images. What about post work. Give that Rebel to David Ziser I bet you 1000% he would smoke that shoot and provide awesome work.

The camera doest make you a Professional. A professional is someone who makes money doing something. I did not make the rules, society did. I say the judge knew a little about photography and tried to toot his own horn, and empress the crowd. Did you hear him throw out all those brands, Pelican case, Gold series, Series 1, lol. A canon guy yeah right, Not even a mention of a 5d? Did he mix brands, I thought I heard him throw out a Nikon lens Like a 17mm, Hmm doesn’t matter. He was tryng to show off and make the photographers look bad, IMO he was acting like somewhat of a Bully know it all.

He started throwing out terms Like fast glass, Well fast glass is great but it will also makes Noise. I know people who prefer f4 to f2 because the noise is less. Yes you have to use a tripod and they have to stay still, however ambient light can be used with so called slow glass and take wonderful images. In the right hands!

Next is Post work. Noise can me dealt with in Photoshop with Ease. I people who can enlarge a 2 meg image to be huge. There is all kinds of way to enlarge. I know of a shop that up convert Images to large format and put up building wraps. There is software that makes it all but simple, for a price.

As to the Walmart processing. Unless you are doing exotic finishes, and at $1300 I dont think they are paying for that, you get what you pay for. Mpix will eat up $1300 like a fat kid eating a cake! I think the Judge was an Ahole!

If the photographer would of just known a little more about her gear, as well as used Walmart as proofing, (agree with the Judge from the start) things would of been way different. What would he of said If they were using a Nikon Dx1. Would they be a pro then. Those can be had with a lens of Ebay for 3-500.

If you are asked to do a wedding and have an e510, rent some good glass and go shoot it. Make a clause that they only pay for the images they like, If they like none then Pay none. I am sure if you rent a 35-100, I would do it with a e300. Why, because I am a Bad MOFO in Photoshop and Light Room.

Pros try to get all the work done in the Camera, People Like me who aren’t photographers, get it done in software.

I would Love to show up at a wedding with my Sony dsc-t2. Not only will I give them Stills, I would throw down some HD video. Take it to PS and After effects. Use C4D for some BA motion graphics, those people would be telling the world how awesome the photographer is. Am I a pro. Heck YES. I will take any JOB. The difference with me is, I wont stop working until I blow the customer away, even if I have to work close to death. I love the challenge!

I would love to see some of Joe Browns work, I bet he shoots on Auto!

I posted this at David Ziser site-
David is a master of self promotion. This kind of post shows that. If this wasn’t a hot button subject, David would have found something else that is equally thought provoking. I find it funny that a few of the folks have decided to tell us what David was thinking-wonder if they know what I am thinking right NOWW!!!????
Now my opinion- The quality of the camera is important, but ultimately it is a tool. Place the tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman or a talented apprentice and the results will be good to great. Could Michelangelo created his works with crayons? No, but I’ll bet they would be some damn fine refrigerator drawings. Put a Kodak instamatic in the hands of David Ziser, Joe McNally, David Hobby, Scott Kelby or any other talented photographer and you will get the results. They would have worked angles, lights, motion and a 1000 other variables into the equation and give the bride nice pictures. Now, switch it around- give a NiCanon 1dMK9 with a 200 mp sensor and a rack of speedlights and radio poppers to a person with very limited skills and knowledge and your are going to get some really great, sharp, SNAPSHOTS. It is up to the craftsman/artist/photographer to know how to use the tools that they have. This issue has been beaten for a long time. What everyone seems to want to be is “the” photographer that books the best and biggest most expensive wedding where the bride will want to buy all 500 shots custom framed at 16×20. And there are folks that cater to those folks. But what about the couple struggling to put the wedding together with a very limited budget. This may be wedding number 5 and all they want is the vows and the reception shot. Are these folks to be told “no” because they are not looking for a 5 figure layout? The ”amateurs” that are being tossed under the bus do serve a market segment. These folks deserve good work, whether it is with a medium format , a Nikon, Pentax or Canon. Did the bride deserve good work? YES! Could the photographer done a better job with different equipment? Who knows. Maybe if she was shooting fast glass in machine gun mode she could have gotten a few good one. It was the photogra[hers fault for not being educated
I would venture a guess that at some point all of you have showed your work and the person viewing says “ wow those are good! Your camera takes amazing pictures”
Yes, it’s the camera……

Sound that the photog is guilty of lack of prep for what she was charging for

In this case, the photographer needed to be defended from the judge even more than from the plaintiff.

That ain’t how it is supposed to done.

That was a circus, not a court of law
I have no idea who was in the right,
because there were no facts on which to form an opinion.
Joe Soap is a self opinionated, overbearing and bullying disgrace to the legal system,
and if he is still ‘administering justice’ with that film in circulation showing clearly the kind of man he is, then it is also a stain on your society.

seems the ‘judge’ was more interested in telling us about his experience than the case itself.
i felt bad for the photographers.

Interesting insight. I saw this show and too felt the lady was not given the opportunity to state here case. I agree with you 100% that some photographers and people in general try to elevate there value at another individual’s expense without considering the affects on one’s life. Recent experience. I inquired about sports photography on one of the popular internet photography site. Almost immediately, there were a few, supposedly professional sport photographers, that jump in and stated that my question was “stupid” and that I threatened their lively hood as a sports photographer. Yet when I asked for their guidance and help the bashing began but I knew that it was insecurity on their part. They fear competition. How can affect their jobs…I am in a separate State or across the pond from them. I asked them how am I, a rookie, amateur – these are their words, even though they have no clue about my experience, threaten their jobs, again name calling and bashing by the same group of Fan Boys. From their reaction I knew the reason why they believe I was a threat…insecurities. I just feed off of this kind of negativity and prosper from it. Funny thing is their sports photos were not all that impressive to me.

I understand why some may find indignation at how this was handled in court but I feel no pity for this lady. It gets really old seeing people with no love, appreciation, knowledge or willingness to learn a trade jump into the fray and screw things up. If you think that this low level person with a camera isn’t screwing up the economy of wedding photography then you need to really stop and analyze the situation a bit better rather than getting emotional about it. She has taken a job from someone who would have known what they are doing. She took a job from someone who could have given the bride and groom the proper education on how much real photography cost for this subject matter. I hope this serves as a lesson to all people with little to no knowledge of how to actually use their camera.

Go out, learn how to meter (both for ambient *zone system* and artificial), learn composition, learn off camera lighting, study other photographers, study perspective etc. etc. Learn color theory as well. THEN go out and practice, practice, practice then go learn the business. There is more than enough information in libraries (remember those) and online. If this person or anyone else really wanted to learn the information is out there and abundant. These talentless, get money quick types do this to every industry they lay their filthy hands on. They did it to IT (remember MCSE craze anyone). They did it to real estate, and the list goes on and on. Stop excusing these locust, this women put herself out there as a professional and she wasn’t and now she had to pay the price, it happens.

I should add, that this is no excuse for gear snobbery to an extent. She could have gotten away with using a rebel but she should have used faster lenses for sure. I have seen fashion and portrait shoots done with rebels and L series glass and you would be hard pressed to tell what the image was taken with. With that said you do need certain things to get the job done and good glass is definitely one of them.

As a pastor of 27 years and a serious amateur photographer of almost 40 years, I find many of the comments on here amusing.

In 27 years of ministry NOT ONCE has a professional photographer contacted me in advance about my photography policy. Due to a jerk (putting it mildly) who barged through the wedding party, pushing me out of the way, to get photos from behind the altar, including inserting himself into the service to get the photo of the ring exchange, I allow the photographer to take flash photographs of the entry and exit of the parties involved. The photographer is then banished to the choir loft where (s)he can take existing light photographs. I will stay as long as necessary after the worship service for the photographer to take the “do overs” (exchange of rings, declaration of marriage, etc.). The bride and groom know of these policies (and their reason) during their first visit with me as we examine the church’s WRITTEN wedding policy.

Also, in 27 years, never has a professional photographer attended the wedding rehearsal, nor come to the church in advance to “scope out the venue.” I have not watched the video, I do not watch “Judge Joe Brown,” but I have read the comments this post. So, if the woman’s failure to check out the church and flash policies prior to the wedding constitute unprofessional behavior, then every professional photographer who has ever come to my church is “unprofessional.” And, I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of professionals who have taken her to task for failing to do this, fail to do it themselves. I hope there are exceptions to the rule–I haven’t met any of them yet.

And yes, I have photographed two weddings as a favor to family members. And, no, I didn’t check out the churches’ flash policies prior to the wedding day. The wedding service is a religious/worship service and I knew in advance that I WOULD NOT take flash photographs during the service. Following my own policies, I did take flash photographs of the wedding parties entering and leaving the service and I used flash afterward in restaging the important parts of the service. I copied the photos to a cd and they chose which ones to take to Wal-Mart and have blown up.

Well, my rant is over. But if you are going to claim this woman was not professional because she did not know the flash policy and failed to visit the church prior to the service, then there are a ton of unprofessional professionals out there and don’t judge her as unprofessional if you fail to live up to the VERY same standards by which you judge her.

HERE ENDETH THE RANT (finally).

I think YOU have missed the point. The point of this case was that the woman was passing herself off as a professional, Joes rants aside….CLEARLY she is not professional at any point in this case. From her gear choices, from her manner, from her attitude, to her lack of knowledge of the industry and her own gear! This was very much a kangaroo court I agree and was all done for TV to sensationalize. I do not see it as throwing other photographers under the bus, more like warning people that there are shysters out there and to be aware and careful. I too have shot with a Canon Rebel XT and have had images from this camera published in international magazines. It is a fine camera. No problems there. Even with a kit lens, a skilled photographer can get something useful from it. That is the point. This woman was NOTHING close to a skilled photographer. She was a hack. From day one. I could have and HAVE taken better images with my iPhone AT WEDDINGS! I shot a wedding as a gift to a family member who had already hired a “professional”. This guy shows up with the Hasselblad and all the amazing glass and assistants and all the gear. Clearly he was a competent photographer. When it came time to exchange the rings and the kiss, I could hear his film loader rewinding. He was so busy messing with his rig, that he missed all the shots. I of course got the shots, but he was the one that got paid almost $2,000. I did it for nothing. I cannot tell you how many weddings I have seen ruined by no talent hacks that got their gear at Best Buy. Is it throwing others under the bus? NO. I teach some of these hack in my many workshops and courses. So I am doing my part as well. But should this woman have been offering professional wedding photography? NO FRIGGIN WAY!!!! I turn down weddings cause I do not think I am good enough and I could do better than this woman with an iPhone. The industry needs to WEED out this clowns and fast or we will all get rolled into the ball with them. Hell I was a newspaper photographer when Diana died. Wanna know how many people spit on me and said I killed Diana???? People that slowed down to rubber neck a car accident and noticed me shooting. Flicking their cigarettes at me and calling me a vulture as they SLOW DOWN TO RUBBERNECK AN ACCIDENT!!!! Whatever. If they did not buy the tabloids, the editors could not offer a million dollars for ONE SHOT!

THEY killed Diana, not me!

Back to this clown. She is giving ALL of us a bad name. Your point about not knowing the F-stop? Digital cameras record all that data for you. She was reluctant to say because it would demonstrate her total lack of proper gear for this assignment. Wedding photographers shoot with THOUSANDS of dollars invested in JUST lenses! Leave that work to them. You are likely like one of these people that since you have bandaged a few of your kids scrapped knees it makes you a nurse. Let the professionals do the job or you will end up in some court somewhere being sued. Back to your original point about she got what she paid for. Is it possible that this “photographer” was perhaps showing someone else’s work? Perhaps stolen from the internet? Oh yeah, that never happens. Where was her portfolio in court??? I would have brought mine! I would have said, her wedding shots are very similar to almost every wedding I have ever shot. The clown says she has shot hundreds of weddings…..with a Rebel XT? Some pros that make their living off weddings have not even shot “hundreds” of weddings! This woman needs to take some courses, perhaps she should start with Professional Conduct.

I stumbled across this post, and while agree with some of your points and disagree with others, what I want to ask is WTF is a graduated aperture lens? I’ve been doing photography for nearly 40 years, and this is the first time I’ve heard the term.

Is that something like a muffler bearing? Something that you just made up to test people’s knowledge? If I do a google search on it, your page is the only reference I find. I know what a graduated neutral density filter is but never heard of a graduated aperture.